Herenkleding voor de ware fijnproever => Pak => Topic gestart door: Huey op 05 oktober 2004 – 16:51:12

Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: Huey op 05 oktober 2004 – 16:51:12
De bedoeling van dit topic is een beetje om een overzicht te krijgen van de 'uitstraling' van bepaalde pakken merken.

Beetje moeilijk om uit te leggen, maar ik heb het idee dat Borrelli een veel natuurlijkere lijn van het lichaam volgt dan Brioni. Ik denk dat Brioni mannen wat meer 'vorm' geeft. Meer schouders bijvoorbeeld.

Misschien heb ik het helemaal fout, maar volgens mij heeft elk merk wel een soort signature pasvorm.
Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: gusto napolitano op 05 oktober 2004 – 17:17:04
to cut
Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: Solitarias op 05 oktober 2004 – 20:59:49
Ik heb daar ooit op Fok! een heel verhaal over gemaakt...zal eens gaan zoeken.......

Nee, niet terug kunnen vinden met die brakke search van Fok!
Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: Solitarias op 09 oktober 2004 – 03:50:40
Deze post van kan wellicht helpen...

Silhouettes are not so easy to categorize either by brand or by nationality.  So let's think of them first intrinsically.

Overall, a silhouette may be lean or full; structured or soft; elongating or" widening"; smooth (or "clean") or draped (or "rumpled").  Structure v. softness generally depends on the type of materials used, and on stitching techniques.  E.g., a structured suit will use more padding in the shoulders, stiffer canvas in the chest, etc.  There are certain hand stitching techniques that go into making a soft suit which actual tailors have described in detail, so I defer to them.

Descending to specifics, we may divide the coat into five basic parts: shoulders, gorge, chest, waist, and skirt.

Shoulders may be built up or "natural."  I put natural in quotes because there is no such thing as a truly natural, unpadded shoulder.  That’s a cardigan sweater.  But a “natural shoulder” suit has very thin, soft padding, and little of it.  Furthermore, shoulders may be more or less sloped from the collar to the scye (armhole).  Sometimes they are even concave; that is, they curve gently downward from the collar, and then rise again at the sleevehead.  Further still, they may be “roped”: that is, the sleevehead may be raised up a tad from the shoulder line.  Another refinement is to make sleevehead a more "oval" shape, rather than conventionally round.  Then there is width: true natural shoulders tend to fall exactly on a man’s true shoulder-line; but some structured shoulders also do this as well.  Or shoulders may be “extended” by a half and inch or so.  This can help the "drape" (excess cloth over the chest and blades) hang more elegantly, but it's not essential: not all draped coats have extended shoulders.  Also, tall guys, guys with slight chests and shoulders, and guys with big heads benefit from an extended shoulder.  On muscular guys, it is "gilding the lily."  Any more than a half inch, however (depending on a dude’s size), is costumey and not generally done.

The “gorge” is where the lapels meet the collar of the coat.  This may be high (collarbone or so) or lower, in the upper ribs.  The width of the lapels is also a factor to consider, though there is no direct relationship: a coat with a high gorge may have wide or narrow lapels, and vice versa.  Wide lapels tend to "widen" the silhouette, and are thus not recommended for heavy guys or short guys.  Though, as always, there are exceptions.  No one would call the average Neapolitan male "tall," and yet he wears what is essentially a widening silhouette with great elegance.

The chest of a coat may be full (swelled) or lean (shallow); and draped or clean.  Basically, on a jacket with a lean chest, the outer edges of the jacket are pretty close to your actual torso.  A swelled chest means there’s extra cloth that stands apart from your chest, making it look bigger (wider).  Swell is generally convex: billowing out in a gentle curve from the waist (or bottom of the ribs) and then back in under the armscye.  "Swell" is not be confused with drape.  A really good tailor can make a chest that fits close to your torso at the sides, but has some drape (excess vertical folds of cloth) in the hollow area below your collarbone.  Other tailors will make the cloth here lie completely flat and clean.

Three things about the waist of a coat: is there one, and if so where is it, and how dramatic is it?  Few completely undarted, waistless jackets are made any more, but they exist.  Most coats have a waist of some degree.  Tailors can alter the look of a coat by simply raising or lowering the "latitude" at which the jacket’s waist is “suppressed.”  Then there is the question of degree.  Most suits today have reasonably subtle waist suppression, but a few have a really pinched waist.  Also: the suppression may be acute at only one point (like this: } { ) or else over a longer span (essentially like this: ) ( ). The placement of the waist also determines the placement of the buttons.  This is known as the “button stance.”  The middle button (or top button on a 2-button coat) -- i.e., the button that you actually fasten -- should be positioned on the exact latitude of the coat's waist.  Fashion houses do not always follow this rule, but classic RTW manufactuerers and bespoke tailors virtually all do.

Skirt: this is the part of the jacket that hangs below the waist.  It may be full or sit reasonably close to the hips.  Also, the coat front edges that fall below the waist button may hang straight, or be flared away from the button.  (SB only.  Only one edge of a DB skirt front is visible, and it should hang relatively straight.)

Before I describe the few truly identifiably silhouettes, I must say two things: 1) the above points are just the basics; there are a zillion ways that one coat can be different from another, so that truly the number of silhouettes that are possible are infinite; 2) (this one may well get me flamed) well dressed guys and the bespoke obsessed tend to prefer certain things: natural shoulder on the shoulder line; high gorge; high armholes; draped but close chest; high waist and button stance; medium waist suppression (err on the side of more rather than less); close skirt with flared away front edges.  But many very well dressed men do not like some or all of these things.

Now, there are a handful of famous silhouettes.  The Scholte/Anderson & Sheppard/Neapolitan/Flusser cut is one.  This was invented by the Dutchman Frederick Scholte, who perfected in the late 1920s, and died in the 1950s.  This is a natural shoulder, minimal padding, gentle downward slope, no rope.  A&S and Flusser extend the shoulder by about a half inch.  The Neapolitans generally do not.  The Neapolitans also add that famous sleevehead (a much larger opening at the top of the sleeve is carefully hand-pleated into a much smaller scye).  Both have a pretty generous drape in the chest and over the shoulder blades.  Both use minimal padding and very soft canvas.  Waist: A&S and Flusser: 1/2" below the natural waist; the Neapolitan waist is often a little higher.  Flusser has a unique "not quite American, not quite English" shape to the waist; plagerizing from A Harris: "straight (diagonal, and actually slightly concave) line from the bottom of the armhole to the waist, and back out, again in a straight (in actuality, slightly convex) line to the bottom of the jacket."  All these, however, have close skirts, but the Neapolitans flare the front edges more.  This silhouette really shines in DB, 6 on 2.

Also in this category:

Attolini: Soft like the true Naples cut, with the famous sleevehead, but much, much leaner.  Almost a mean between Kiton and Brioni.  Super high gorge and waist -- probably the highest there are in RTW.

Isaia: Much like Kiton.  Less dramatically draped.  Less "rounded" chest.

Borrelli: A more "widening" silhouette.  Buttons spaced apart more, wider lapels, etc.  Otherwise, pretty classically Neapolitan.

The classic “Roman” silhouette” as exemplified by Brioni: Structured shoulders, on the natural shoulderline.  An obsessively clean and structured chest.  A very lean silhouette overall.  Close and flared skirt.  A great SB, 2 button silhouette.

The Roman "soft" suit (Carceni, Raphael NYC): what I described above as the "ideal" bespoke silhouette: natural shoulder on the shoulder line; sloped, concave shoulder with a slightly roped sleevehead, high gorge; high armholes; draped but close chest; high waist and button stance; medium waist suppression; close skirt with flared away front edges.  

Milan (Barbera, A. Caraceni): tends to be a shorter coat overall.  Shoulders about halfway between Naples and Rome; "oval" shape, and roped, more often than not.  High gorge and armhole.  Soft construction, but clean without a lot of drape.  Medium waist height and suppression; subtle skirt.  "2 1/2" button stance is prefered; overall leaner than the Neapolitan.

English military (e.g., Kiglour, Dege, Logsdail) or "equestrian" (Hunstman): very enlongating overall; structured shoulder on the natural line.  Roped (Kilgour, Logsdail).  Lots of structure on the chest.  Clean chest.  Very lean; high gorge, high waist.  Wasp waist, flared skirt, one-button stance (Huntsman).  Narrowish lapels, true three button (i.e., two to button) stance (Kilgour).

If there were such a thing as "typical Savile Row" it would be: natural shoulder on the shoulder line, roped; chest with a little swell and a little drape; high gorge and waist; lapels slightly narrower than halfway across the jacket's chest; lapels gently curved from the waist button to the gorge; pinched waist; flared skirt; side vents; 3 piece SB 2 button.  Many of the "second tier" tailors make exactly this, and it looks good on a lot of guys.  This is basically the Gieves and Poole silhouette.  (I know Gieves is a big maker of uniforms, and so perhaps should be in the "military" section, but their silhouette is a little softer than those mentioned above.  Check out the picture of Robert Gieves in Roetzel's book -- can't remember the page).

French: this one is hard, but I take Cifonelli as my guide: lots of structure, high everything, but an unusual “columnar” waist: the suppression starts very high, “straightens out,” continues to about the hips, then the skirt flares out slightly.  Odd.  I don’t see this anywhere else.  The French also tend to make smaller (narrower) than average lapels, too.  Cifonelli and Cristiani certainly do, at any rate.  And the "wrap" of the DB is smaller.  Beyond this, I’m not sure there is a typical “Paris” silhouette.  The French are always being knocked for the Cardin et al supertight suits of the 70s, but that was a long time ago.  Lanvin, Hermes &c. make (or sell) pretty conventional silhouettes if you ask me.  I don’t know about Arnys.

The “Sack”: now made pretty much only by J Press.  No darts, a straight hanging coat with practically no waist, natural shoulders (but huge armholes) a rumpled chest, and a full skirt with no flair.

Then there is the typical “Ameican” silhouette: bland shoulder, chest not really clean, not really draped, slight waist suppression, straight skirt, two button, center vent.

Oxxford (thanks johnnynorman3): Manhattan II: "Americanized Neopolitan shoulder -- very little padding, very sloped, but more rounded at the shoulder seam than a true Neopolitan.  I wouldn't call it 'classic' American because it is more lightly padded and close to the natural shoulder line than say, Hickey Freeman."  Gibbons: "Gibbons model falls somewhere between a Neopolitan and a Brioni, though it doesn't have the same skirt because of the center vent."

St. Andrews: Anyone?

RL Purple: in the old days, when these were made by the late, lamented Chester Barrie, they struck me as an attempt to copy Kilgour's as exactly as possible for a RTW garment.  Now that they are made by St. Andrews, I must admit that I have never tried one on and so do not know.  Anyone?
Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: Huey op 09 oktober 2004 – 22:17:40
Dat was even leuk lezen :)

Alhoewel ik bepaalde Engelstalige termen toch niet helemaal thuis kan brengen, ook natuurlijk omdat ik nog een No0b ben. Maar mijn 'beeld' van bijv. Brioni is toch ook wel bevestigd in dit stukje. Zelf houd ik wel van zo'n uitstraling, vind het wel wat hebben. Maar dat nonchalente van Borrelli is ook wel erg  8)
Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: gusto napolitano op 09 oktober 2004 – 22:41:50
Je zou verschillende kostuums eens moeten passen je kunt dan meteen de verschillen proeven.Elk merk heeft zo zijn eigen snit.En ja Borrelli is natuurlijk iets aparts.
Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: gusto napolitano op 11 oktober 2004 – 18:49:18
Streep op streep ziet er goed uit.

Titel: Stijl van pak
Bericht door: Huey op 11 oktober 2004 – 20:50:14
Citaat van: "gusto napolitano"
Streep op streep ziet er goed uit.


Zelf houd ik er altijd van om onder een pak met een streepje gewoon een effen overhemd te dragen. Niet te veel met motieven spelen, alhoewel het er op de foto idd  8) uit ziet.

Van de week zag ik iemand met een krijtstreeppak, een ruitjesoverhemd en een das met stoppen, De horror!  :roll:

En het ergste is dat het NIEMAND opvalt  :(