Auteur Topic: [Pakken] Corneliani  (gelezen 40534 keer)

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Online Carwo

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #240 Gepost op: 08 oktober 2008, 11:50:02 »
Zegna zou me niet verbazen, omdat ze ook veel gebruikmaken van blends (zie bijvoorbeeld de twee jasjes een stukje terug in dit topic: katoen/wol/cashgora en zijde/vlas/wol), en is Zegna niet de blendkampioen onder de wevers?
Carweau • couturier

Offline Bogart

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #241 Gepost op: 08 oktober 2008, 11:52:52 »
Vind Zegna mooi merk, was me eerst niet zo opgevallen.
Van het weekend eens een rtw geprobeerd,mooi spul.
« Laatst bewerkt op: 08 oktober 2008, 11:59:11 door Bogart »
"It is ok for me to have everything I want"

Offline gusto napolitano

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #242 Gepost op: 08 oktober 2008, 19:50:41 »
De Z line is erg mooi Bogart ziet er zo wie zo mooier uit als de instap line.

Offline Topdude

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #243 Gepost op: 18 oktober 2008, 19:42:25 »
Hoogenboom mode in Nijmegen komt binnenkort ook met mtm Corneliani.

Dit ter info.

Offline marcos

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #244 Gepost op: 18 oktober 2008, 20:33:32 »
Is dat wat, Hoogenboom?

Online Carwo

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #245 Gepost op: 18 oktober 2008, 22:35:10 »
Is dat wat, Hoogenboom?

Ik zou even doorlopen naar Tijssen (en daar meteen naar de bovenste verdieping). Geen Corneliani, trouwens, wel Pal Zileri en Borrelli. Maar misschien denkt Topdude daar anders over.
Carweau • couturier

Offline Edgar

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #246 Gepost op: 01 november 2008, 22:23:55 »
Vandaag een rtw Corneliani pak gekocht. Mooi pak. Ik ben er blij mee, maar eigenlijk is het toch te veel geld wat ze er voor vragen. Ik moest bijna € 1.000,00 betalen. Ik krijg toch steeds vaker het gevoel dat de prijs/kwaliteit verhouding van rtw (en soms ook bij mtm) volledig zoek is.  :-k
The question then becomes, do you want to be part of the original group, or do you want be part of the cover band?

Online Carwo

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #247 Gepost op: 01 november 2008, 22:29:31 »
Vandaag een rtw Corneliani pak gekocht. Mooi pak. Ik ben er blij mee, maar eigenlijk is het toch te veel geld wat ze er voor vragen. Ik moest bijna € 1.000,00 betalen. Ik krijg toch steeds vaker het gevoel dat de prijs/kwaliteit verhouding van rtw (en soms ook bij mtm) volledig zoek is.  :-k

Zijn wel goede pakken, Edgar. Stof, details?
Carweau • couturier

Offline Mikey Fuoco

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #248 Gepost op: 01 november 2008, 23:22:44 »
Vandaag een rtw Corneliani pak gekocht. Mooi pak. Ik ben er blij mee, maar eigenlijk is het toch te veel geld wat ze er voor vragen. Ik moest bijna € 1.000,00 betalen. Ik krijg toch steeds vaker het gevoel dat de prijs/kwaliteit verhouding van rtw (en soms ook bij mtm) volledig zoek is.  :-k

Wat heeft jou dan toch doen besluiten die 1k stuk te slaan  :?:
Her dress is up to waterline
Bitch is clearly borderline
Nose as white as Snow White's, in moonlight

Offline Jerome

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #249 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 10:16:07 »

Offline foto010101

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #250 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 10:44:42 »
Hoogenboom is qua pand waarschijnlijk de mooiste winkel van Nijmegen. De meest interessante winkel van Nijmegen is Maarten Tijssen.

Overigens, 1000 euro voor een Corneliani pak is heel gebruikelijk.

Offline Edgar

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #251 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 10:47:37 »
Wat heeft jou dan toch doen besluiten die 1k stuk te slaan  :?:

Ik had een pak nodig. Dit vond ik een mooi pak.
Alle pakken die ik gisteren gepast had, waren vanaf zo'n € 900,00. Ik vind dat an sich veel geld voor een broek en een jasje. Of ben ik de enige die een bepaalde discrepantie zie tussen het gebodene en de prijs. Natuurlijk is het goede kwaliteit en zijn de stoffen mooi, maar het is en blijft een rtw dat echt niet (volledig) met de hand in elkaar is gezet.

The question then becomes, do you want to be part of the original group, or do you want be part of the cover band?

Offline foto010101

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #252 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 10:50:32 »
Of ben ik de enige die een bepaalde discrepantie zie tussen het gebodene en de prijs.

Hoe bepaal jij die discrepantie dan?

Offline Mikey Fuoco

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #253 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 10:51:19 »
Als je snel een goed pak nodig hebt, is het voor jezelf wel te verantwoorden, maar ik ben het met je eens dat het gewoon veel geld is, zeker in vergelijking met een pak dat speciaal voor jou op maat gemaakt wordt.

Des te duidelijker wordt dit vaak aan het eind van het seizoen, als die pakken vaak tegen 50% weggaan.  
Her dress is up to waterline
Bitch is clearly borderline
Nose as white as Snow White's, in moonlight

Offline Bogart

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #254 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 11:57:00 »
Jammer dat je het snel nodig hebt.
Anders had je voor €995 een MTM Caruso kunnen hebben.
Maar met Corneliani is overigens niets mis.
Mooie afwerking, goede stoffen van wat ik ervan heb gezie.
Veel plezier ermee, Edgar.
"It is ok for me to have everything I want"

Offline adelante

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #255 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 12:29:13 »
NEE!!

Nee, als in?

Ik vind het een prachtige winkel, ze hebben er mooie items (naast cumlaude etc.) en vriendelijke personeel. Met name leuk dat ze ook fratelli borgioli schoenen verkopen.
Lees deze reactie aandachtig, voor je het weet is ie weg.
Distracting older women since 1980

Offline oxfordstreet

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #256 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 21:23:16 »
Nee, als in?

Ik vind het een prachtige winkel, ze hebben er mooie items (naast cumlaude etc.) en vriendelijke personeel. Met name leuk dat ze ook fratelli borgioli schoenen verkopen.

+1

en persoonlijk ga ik liever naar Hoogenboom dan naar Tijssen. Bij deze laatste krijg ik altijd het idee dat je moet uitstralen dat je geld te "verspillen" hebt voordat je überhaupt geholpen wordt.
"Style is not fashion, it's something we have inside"

Offline foto010101

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #257 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 21:28:48 »
+1

en persoonlijk ga ik liever naar Hoogenboom dan naar Tijssen. Bij deze laatste krijg ik altijd het idee dat je moet uitstralen dat je geld te "verspillen" hebt voordat je überhaupt geholpen wordt.

-1

Deze ervaring heb ik niet. Ik ben altijd perfect geholpen.

Offline Jerome

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #258 Gepost op: 02 november 2008, 23:50:38 »
Vroeger was Hoogenboom een echt goede herenmodezaak. Mooi pand, mooie kleren en deskundig personeel. Sinds de overname verkopen ze steeds meer troep (ik heb zelfs een merk van Jack&Jones gespot). Het personeel is aardig maar zeker niet heel deskundig. Ik vind het telkens weer een teleurstelling! Tijssen is qua assortiment vele malen beter en verkoopt kleding met een verhaal. Hoogenboom is helaas (zoals zovelen) gevallen voor de commercie.

Offline marcos

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #259 Gepost op: 03 november 2008, 00:40:55 »
Door wie is Hoogenboom overgenomen?

Offline oxfordstreet

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #260 Gepost op: 03 november 2008, 09:37:21 »
Vroeger was Hoogenboom een echt goede herenmodezaak. Mooi pand, mooie kleren en deskundig personeel. Sinds de overname verkopen ze steeds meer troep (ik heb zelfs een merk van Jack&Jones gespot). Het personeel is aardig maar zeker niet heel deskundig. Ik vind het telkens weer een teleurstelling! Tijssen is qua assortiment vele malen beter en verkoopt kleding met een verhaal. Hoogenboom is helaas (zoals zovelen) gevallen voor de commercie.

Da's dan ook weer waar, echter Tijssen krijgt niet mijn voorkeur, wellicht door slechte ervaring. Misschien moet ik het opnieuw gaan proberen.......
"Style is not fashion, it's something we have inside"

Offline foto010101

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #261 Gepost op: 03 november 2008, 09:50:25 »
Erg off topic allemaal :wink:

Offline Sergio

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #262 Gepost op: 03 november 2008, 10:45:37 »
Inderdaad, dus...
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Never expect to get a lot by paying a little
Style isn't a question of life or death: it's much more important than that.


Vanità - modern tailors

Offline oxfordstreet

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #263 Gepost op: 03 november 2008, 11:37:50 »
Ok ok... :)

4 maart (o.a.) Corneliani aanmeetsessie bij T&C in Arnhem
"Style is not fashion, it's something we have inside"

Offline Soprano

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #264 Gepost op: 14 november 2008, 16:02:36 »
Afgelopen woensdag bij Society in Rotterdam twee Corneliani RTW pakken gekocht. Prachtige stof (S150).

Had altijd goede ervaringen met dit merk, maar vond ook dat de prijs nogal hard omhoog was gegaan.

Society heeft nu een aktie: tweede pak 50% korting. En ja, ik blijf Nederlander.

Na MTM ervaringen bij Suit Supply en NvN ben ik weer terug bij RTW (eerst Zegna bij Kool en nu dus Corneliani).


Offline Sergio

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #265 Gepost op: 17 november 2008, 08:39:41 »
Waarom van MTM weer terug bij RTW?
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Never expect to get a lot by paying a little
Style isn't a question of life or death: it's much more important than that.


Vanità - modern tailors

Offline Soprano

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #266 Gepost op: 17 november 2008, 21:37:13 »
De jasjes van Corneliani, Zegna en Caruso zijn domweg mooier gemaakt dan de MTM aanbieders die ik noemde.

En MTM van deze Italiaanse merken vind ik echt te veel geld.

Offline Daedalus

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #267 Gepost op: 10 december 2008, 17:54:18 »

Coding Corneliani
BY COURTNEY COLAVITA
June 18, 2007
MILAN — Generating a truly new phenomenon in the tailored clothing business is about as challenging as a young Hollywood starlet’s staying out of rehab.

Giorgio Armani’s slouch and the shrunken proportions of Hedi Slimane and Thom Browne aside, the basic parts of the jacket haven’t changed much in the last two centuries.

That’s until Corneliani managed to alter the sport coat. It tinkered with it just enough to create a singular moment when it introduced its ID jacket to U.S. consumers last fall.

The industry immediately took notice—as did Corneliani’s competitors—of the systems jacket, which features a built-in center panel.

The ID jacket became the anchor of Corneliani’s burgeoning luxury sportswear collection, helped attract new clients even in its core tailored category, and, like its name, gave a distinguishable identity to the Mantua-based company.

“It just clicked,” said Roger Cohen, president and COO of Corneliani USA, and a driving factor in Corneliani’s stateside ascension. “We saw this need in the market. We looked at our competition and the chinks in their armor.”

Corneliani’s journey from high-end Italian suit manufacturer to luxury brand was not happenstance. Market research, spot-on timing, and creative intuition from head designer Sergio Corneliani helped the company generate a category that filled a need and solidified a brand.

When Cohen joined Corneliani almost nine years ago, the executive found the company in a state common to Italy. It was a family-run manufacturer with a solid yet homogenous product, with little marketing to help differentiate it from the other suits. Moreover, the way men dressed began to change. Casual Fridays signified something else, and as casual dress turned more formal, Corneliani saw an opportunity and pounced.

“Five years ago we were more connected to a single product,” said Maurizio Corneliani, global sales and marketing director. “We knew the values of the brand but we weren’t yet able to express them.”
Expression came in the form of greater product range—the ID concept at its centerpiece. The new subdivision helped boost Corneliani’s recognition, which also bodes well for its mainstay product.

“We didn’t grow and conceptualize the ID at the cost of our core competency,” Cohen said.

Maurizio added: “We decided to approach casual luxury clothing not from an outerwear standpoint but from what we do—jackets. We wanted to render the jacket more versatile.”
That versatility, also at the company level, has only helped build business in the U.S. and in Corneliani’s other key markets, like Italy, the U.K., Japan and China.

The company has marked doubled-digit growth over the past few years. Consolidated global sales are expected to reach 150 million euros, or $200 million at the current exchange rate, this year, up 16.3 percent from 2006.

Maurizio said the company’s goal is to reach 200 million euros ($250 million) in the next three to four years as it penetrates more markets and continues to open stores. He added that the company plans to have a retail network of 100 stores (directly operated and in franchising) within five to six years.

Corneliani’s first London store, a directly operated unit, is set to open on Bond Street this fall. And while a U.S. store, possibly in New York or L.A., is still a couple of years away, business stateside continues to grow.
Following the success of its hard shop in Saks Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, Cohen is eager to increase volume with key accounts. He said U.S. sales should reach $38 million this year.

Tailored clothing represents 65 percent of sales, ID 20 percent and furnishings the remainder—a mix Cohen would like to maintain as volume increases.

“We sell with a belief and we sell with this coordinated marketing effort,” Cohen said. “We know what we’re going to advertise; we know we’re going to get the PR and then we stock it. We’re driving the brand.”

The three-pronged offensive has proven effective. Cohen has increased ad pages in major U.S. men’s and lifestyle magazines from seven pages a year to 12. He also advertises in specialty books, like the one put out by the Forum Group.

The stock list program in particular allows Corneliani to offer customers a test run with limited risk. “The stock program gives customers a comfort level of buying x amount for their stores and then knowing they can fill it in,” Cohen added.

Cohen’s investment in the stock program and keen intention to promote a specific look have had a remarkable impact on the U.S. business. Corneliani’s tailored clothing range is in 130 doors and ID in 98.

“After you have good product and on-time deliveries you need to have someone who understands the specificity of the American market, and Roger is someone who does,” said Michael Macko, senior vice-president and fashion director of Saks Fifth Avenue men’s. The luxury department store has carried Corneliani since 1979. “We’ve always treated Corneliani like a brand. Its recent success has only validated it. They’ve proven they are a leader and people are watching.”

This week at Pitti Uomo in Florence, people will be watching the evolution of the ID jacket. Sergio, Maurizio’s brother, said he played with contrasts for the spring collection, which melds natural fabrics with technical ones and pulls inspiration from works by Robert Doisneau, Henri Cartier-Bresson and Man Ray.

For Cohen and the Corneliani family, in its second generation and poised to celebrate 50 years in business next year, the plan is to continue to push all product categories, generate greater volume in key accounts and even pick up a few new ones.

Where there are ID customers, Cohen believes there are potential tailored ones as well. “We’re creating brand recognition for the company,” Cohen said. “The consumer, at our price level, wants the confidence of a brand. They recognize us and know we are the credibility of the brand.”


The Corneliani family (from left): Cristiano, Sergio, Carlalberto, Maurizio and Corrado

Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it.

Offline Daedalus

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #268 Gepost op: 27 mei 2009, 16:13:25 »
http://www.answers.com/topic/corneliani

Corneliani

Modern Fashion Encyclopedia: Corneliani Spa 
 
Home > Library > Business & Finance > Modern Fashion Encyclopedia(Italian menswear firm)

Founded: in Mantova, Italy, 1930s.

Company History: Modernized, 1958, by Carlalberto (born 1931) and Claudio Corneliani (born 1921), Sergio Corneliani (born 1959) became chief designer; lines include Via Ardigo, Styled by Corneliani, Corneliani, Corneliani Trend, and Corneliani Sportswear; trademarks include Nino Danieli, Browngreen, and Full Time; producers and manufacturers, beginning in 1984, for Daniel Hechter, Erreuno, Karl Lagerfeld, Krizia Uomo, Trussardi, and Renoma; costume designers for various films, including Little Women; Carlalberto Corneliani, president of Italy's fashion committee Comitato Moda, 1976 and president of Federtessile, Italian textile association, 1991; opened Milan flagship store, 1997; acquired Polo Ralph Lauren license for North America, 1998; expanded Polo distribution into Europe, 2000; signed license with Chinese company for manufacture and distribution of Corneliani-branded products in Asia, 2000; launched casual Trend line into U.S. market, 2001.

Awards: Pitti Immagine prize, 1989; Carlalberto Corneliani named Cavaliere del Lavoro, 1991.

Company Address: Via M. Panizza 5, 46100 Mantova, Italy.

Corneliani:
 
Corneliani is a high-quality menswear design company based in Mantova, Italy. Seeking out the perfect balance between fashion content and classic style, the family company, now in its third generation, had its start in the tailoring business in the 1930s. By the late 1950s, the group had established itself as producers of fine men's clothing, a tradition it upholds today.

Corneliani constitutes a company, a family, and a designer label, a blend that seals their success. The group does not promote itself as an individual designer-led label but as "corporate styling." Opposed to the idea that the consumer only purchases clothes because they carry a designer label, Corneliani believes a group-led label guarantees not only creativity, taste, and style but also quality in the cut and manufacture of the product.

Elegance defines the look; styles tend to denote the relaxed, classic taste of Hollywood stars like Cary Grant or George Sanders. The customer is style-conscious, not necessarily fashion-conscious, and his clothes need to be dependable, functional, and highly durable yet also have a feeling of comfort and quality. Corneliani is also aware its customer can have moments of extravagance: a man can suddenly be taken with a striking detail, like an unusual color mix or an interesting fabric.

Corneliani develops most of its own fabrics from the initial selection of fibers, design, and color to the final approval of ideas from among hundreds of samples. Natural fibers predominate: linens, cottons, pure woolen tweeds and herringbones, wool crêpes, and wool venetians. Colors are simply and classically combined. Super-fine, madras checked jackets in navy, beige, and cream are teamed with a sky blue checked shirt, navy trousers, and distinctive navy, beige, and cream striped tie. Beige on beige is a recurrent effect—a crêpe beige suit with matching waistcoat is teamed with a brown checked tie and checked shirt. It's a tweedy English elegance, combined with slick Italian styling.

The company produces four main seasonal collections, all of which adhere to the style principle of relaxed classicism. The flagship collection is named Corneliani. Elegant and restrained, it is defined by the company as the point at which fashion and style meet. Corneliani Trend is a more fashion-oriented collection, designed for a customer who wants to follow fashion but retain a sense of good taste and intelligence. The Corneliani Sportswear collection is refined sportswear combining both comfort and function. Via Ardigo, Styled by Corneliani is a more upbeat, fashion-conscious sportswear line, easy to wear but adhering to the company's trademark respect for quality and elegance.

Corneliani produces a wide range of men's apparel, from jackets and trousers to car coats and overcoats. They rarely work to a design theme or make fashion trend statements; instead they produce an array of seasonal coordinates, within their four main seasonal collections, from which the customer can choose to put together his own look according to his own personal taste. The company's one aim and philosophy is to meet the clothing needs of contemporary, professional men who lead high-gear lives demanding a wardrobe to allow them comfort and freedom.

During the late 1990s and early 2000s, Corneliani focused on increasing its presence in territories outside Europe, particularly in the United States. It also has strived to broaden its customer base by adding more casual apparel to its traditional sartorial offerings. Two developments led Corneliani to launch its younger, more affordable Trend line and to move into sportswear. First, the rise of casual Fridays in both Europe and North America meant increased demand for casual and sporty clothing, an area where Corneliani had historically not been active. Second, a growing number of younger men—a market not actively targeted in the past by the company, whose primary customer was 45 to 60 years old in the U.S. and 10 years younger in Europe—desired fashionable suits priced below the top end of the market. Although Corneliani had been able, in the mid-to late 1990s, to expand in the U.S. by taking advantage of the popularity of Italian-made suits there, it recognized the need to expand further by targeting a wider range of customers.

The Trend brand, which was a success in Europe before being launched in the U.S. in 2001, consists of suits, sport coats, dress and sports shirts, neckwear, casual slacks, active sportswear, and outer-wear. Executives reported to the Daily News Record (12 June 2000) that the line's canvas construction and technologically enhanced performance fabrics were expected to translate well into the U.S. market, whereas the lighter, sportier designs were a good fit with casual trends around the world.

As of 2000, Daily News Record reported the company sold its wares to stores in 45 countries. Its business in the U.S. had grown to encompass more than 10 upscale retail customers, including Saks Fifth Avenue and Nordstrom. Corneliani's market share in Italy remained strong and its presence was on the rise in countries such as Belgium and the Netherlands. Corneliani was also making inroads into Asia, signing a license with a Chinese company in 2000 to market its branded clothing throughout the region.

In addition to allowing Corneliani to enhance its revenues, the launch of Trend, as well as sportswear and men's furnishings, enabled the company to market its products as a collection rather than simply as a line of tailored suits (which accounted for two-thirds of the company's worldwide business in 2000). With the collection, Corneliani has been able to focus on expanding its retail presence, opening a flagship in Milan in 1997 and planning additional outlets in Paris, London, and New York.

Although casual and sporty styles are driving much of the company's growth, Corneliani is not ignoring the tailored suits on which it built its reputation. It introduced a new suit model in the late 1990s, Spencer, which had a more modern silhouette than the company's other suits but retained Corneliani's traditional concern with performance and luxurious fabrics. In addition to expanding its own brand, Corneliani has been focused on its licensed Ralph Lauren label. Corneliani acquired the rights for the U.S. market in 1998, at a time when many U.S. designers were looking to Italy for their men's licensees, and expanded into Europe in 2000. Corneliani produces and distributes Polo Ralph Lauren's blue-label products.

Although the Polo and Corneliani lines have distinct sensibilities and styles, the acquisition of the Polo license helped the Corneliani brand boost its status in the U.S. quickly, after more than a dozen years in the market with a relatively low profile. The company took advantage of this awareness to launch a print advertising campaign in the U.S. featuring trendsetting celebrities from politics, business and entertainment, and has continued to solidify its recognition among American consumers and retailers.

Publications

On Corneliani:

Books
Alfonsi, M., Figli d'Arte? No Grazie, Trento, 1989.

Articles
Lobrano, Alexander, "Still Growing Corneliani," in DNR: The Magazine (New York), 4 January 1988.
"Dietro la Griffe," in Vogue (Milan), February 1991.
"I Corneliani Dell'Abital Agli States," in L'Arena (Verona), 24February 1991.
"Vestiremo All'Americana," in Il Mondo (Milan), 29 April 1991.
"Corneliani," in La Repubblica (Rome), 12 June 1991.
"Corneliani—Hartmarx il Patto Atlantico," in Harper's Bazaar (Milan), 8 July 1991.
Gabbianio, M., "La Quinta di Corneliani," in La Repubblica, 6 March 1992.
"I Segreti di Corneliani," in L'Arena (Verona), 13 March 1992.
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——, "Corneliani Set to Launch Its Polo Ralph Lauren Clothing," in DNR, 25 November 1998.
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Deeny, Godfrey, "Milan: Seriously Elegant Corneliani," available online at Fashion Wire Daily, www.fashionavenue.com, 26 June 2001.




Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it.

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Re: [Pakken] Corneliani
« Reactie #269 Gepost op: 20 juni 2010, 20:12:24 »
« Laatst bewerkt op: 20 juni 2010, 20:14:08 door Daedalus »
Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it.